Episode 54

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Published on:

15th May 2025

'Patriarchy Inc.': Gender Equality at Work - Prof Cordelia Fine

Why do men still benefit from higher pay, status, and power at work? What is the ideological and cultural underpinning that sustains the gendered division of labour? What are the harmful effects of workplace inequality on poverty, health, family life and women’s status? These are some of the key issues that Professor Cordelia Fine addresses in her witty and insightful new book ‘Patriarchy Inc.: What We Get Wrong About Gender Equality and Why Men Still Win at Work’, which is listed as one of the non-fiction books to read this year by the UK Financial Times. 

In our discussion, Cordelia draws on a wealth of evidence to explain how ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ operates, and how progress in dismantling unequal gender arrangements is stymied by two false visions: the ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion (DEI)’ approach, and the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective. Instead, she argues for a set of commonsense reforms which would benefit everyone. These include reorientating societies and workplaces around the assumption that most workers will have caring responsibilities; setting aside definitions of job ‘fit’ and success that exclude women and other marginalised groups; and addressing how the gender system is embedded in childhood. 

We also explore some of the themes from her earlier book, Testosterone Rex, which won the Royal Society Science Book Prize. The book challenges the powerful myth that men and women have evolved fundamentally different natures, and that testosterone is responsible for ‘hard-wiring’ male brains to, for example, take risks, compete, and be violent.  We conclude by discussing her motivations and influences as a writer, and the role of humour in her work. 

Cordelia is Professor in the History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne. She was awarded the prestigious 2018 Edinburgh Medal for her work challenging gender bias in science, and was recently named as a living legend by The Australian newspaper. 

Episode timeline

  • Intro
  • Why Cordelia wanted to write ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ (03:49-08:01)
  • Why she takes issue with the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective (08:01-15:30)
  • Why the ‘DEI’ approach is also insufficient (15:30-27:06)
  • What her ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ approach adds (27:06-33:42)
  • How we can foster genuine equality in the workplace and society (33:42-42:41)
  • Break
  • ‘Testosterone Rex’ and why men’s violence can’t be reduced to biology (42:52-50:55)
  • Fatherhood and why Patriarchy Inc. doesn't work for any of us (50:55-52:12)
  • The use of humour in writing (52:12-55:38)
  • What led Cordelia into researching the science of sex and gender (55:38-01:00:13)
  • Conclusion [The nuances of DEI, Progress being non-linear, The role of trade unions, Capitalism and fatherhood, Valuing care] (01:00:22-01:06:49)
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About the Podcast

Now and Men
Current conversations about men's lives
What's it like to be a man in the 21st century? How are feminist issues relevant to men and boys? How can we engage in productive conversations about gender equality? These questions are being discussed more than ever.

Our monthly podcast delves into these issues with experts such as practitioners, activists and academics. In each episode, you’ll hear in-depth conversations about a wide-range of topics connected to masculinity and the lives of men and boys, from supporting men's health, to preventing gender-based violence, to promoting involved fatherhood.

The podcast is hosted by two social science researchers, based on the opposite sides of the world: Sandy Ruxton from Durham University's Centre for Research into Violence and Abuse (UK) and Dr Stephen Burrell from the University of Melbourne (Australia). If you would like to give us your feedback, suggest a guest, or have a question you'd like us to discuss, get in touch at nowandmen@gmail.com. And if you like what we do, please share us with your friends, and leave a review!

About your hosts

Stephen Burrell

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I am a Lecturer in Criminology at the University of Melbourne. I'm originally from the UK, and moved to Australia at the beginning of 2024. My research is about men, masculinities, and violence. I am particularly interested in the prevention of men's violence - especially violence against women, and violence against the environment - and promoting care as an alternative. I'm a big fan of feminism, drinking tea, connecting with nature, eating vegan snacks, and listening to heavy metal.

Sandy Ruxton

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Honorary Research Fellow in the Department of Sociology at Durham University (UK). Independent researcher, expert on men and masculinities. Previous policy work on human rights, children and families, poverty and social exclusion, and asylum and migration. Programme experience with boys and young men in schools, community, and prisons. Steering Committee member, MenEngage Europe. Volunteer for OX4 Food Crew. Chess-player, bike-rider, tree-hugger. Great grandfather edited Boy's Own Paper, but was sacked.