Prof Michael Flood - Engaging Men and Boys: Theory and Evidence
Work with men and boys has been growing rapidly in the last 30 years, especially around the issues of preventing violence and abuse, building gender equality, promoting fatherhood, and health and wellbeing. To what extent is this a positive development? What are some of the opportunities, challenges and problems that engaging men and boys brings? And how can this work be delivered most effectively, to have a serious impact in tackling issues such as gender-based violence? There are few experts around the world better equipped to provide answers to these questions than Prof Michael Flood. He gives an in-depth, critical overview of the ‘engaging men’ field, and discusses his own story of being an anti-sexist activist since the 1980s. He also explains why it’s vital to think about issues like pornography and online misogyny in this work, and gives some pointers for parents in how to address these issues with children, and sons in particular.
Michael is a Professor in the School of Justice at Queensland University of Technology, Brisbane, Australia. He has written numerous academic publications on issues including violence against women and violence prevention, men and masculinities, pro-feminist men’s advocacy, male heterosexuality, fathering, and pornography. This includes a book with Palgrave Macmillan in 2019, ‘Engaging Men and Boys in Violence Prevention’. He also runs the website XY Online, which is full of resources on men, masculinities and gender politics.
- More info about Michael’s work: https://www.qut.edu.au/about/our-people/academic-profiles/m.flood
- Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MichaelGLFlood
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-flood-5b906713/
- Read his book: https://xyonline.net/content/new-book-engaging-men-and-boys-violence-prevention
- Check out XY Online: https://xyonline.net
- Resources on men’s roles in ending violence against women: https://xyonline.net/content/engaging-men-violence-prevention-key-resources
Read his articles mentioned in the episode:
- ‘Work with men to end violence against women: A critical stocktake’ (2015) - https://doi.org/10.1080/13691058.2015.1070435
- ‘Lust, trust and latex: Why young heterosexual men do not use condoms’ (2003) - https://doi.org/10.1080/1369105011000028273
In this episode we cover the following topics:
- Why the ‘engaging men’ field has been growing, and why that’s a good thing
- Key lessons from research about how to engage with men and boys
- Issues of concern in the development of this work
- Mistakes which can arise in work by and with men and boys
- The tensions of having a public platform as a pro-feminist academic and activist
- The usefulness of terms such as ‘toxic’ and ‘healthy’ masculinity
- Trends in work with men which should give us optimism
- Why it’s important to think about pornography when addressing sexual violence
- Talking to young men about pornography and online misogyny
- Michael’s PhD research on young men’s heterosexual relations with women
- How Michael first got involved in anti-sexist activism, and how he’s been able to maintain his commitment over time
Transcript
Hi everybody and welcome to the latest episode of Now and Men, the podcast about men masculinities and gender equality.
Stephen Burrell:It's Stephen Burrell here with Sandy Ruxton as always.
Stephen Burrell:Hi Sandy.
Sandy Ruxton:Hi Stephen.
Sandy Ruxton:So today for our 31st episode, we have one of the leading voices internationally in the field of men and boys' involvement in preventing violence against women and building gender equality.
Sandy Ruxton:It's Michael Flood, who's a professor in the School of Justice at Queensland University of Technology in Brisbane, Australia.
Stephen Burrell:Yes, and Michael has been involved in pro-feminist activism, since he was the age of 20, having first got involved in an anti-sexist men's group in Australia in 1987.
Stephen Burrell:And since then, he's written numerous, highly influential academic publications on issues including violence against women and violence prevention, men and masculinities,
Stephen Burrell:pro-feminist, men's advocacy, male heterosexuality, fathering, and pornography.
Sandy Ruxton:He's also written a book, which is something of a Bible for this field called Engaging Men and Boys in Violence Prevention, which was published in 2019.
Sandy Ruxton:And his work has been highly influential beyond, as well as within academia, both in Australia and internationally.
Sandy Ruxton:he also runs the hugely popular website, XY Online, which is a treasure trove of resources on men masculinities and, gender politics.
Sandy Ruxton:And I can recommend his Twitter feed too.
Sandy Ruxton:It's a great source of up-to-date information advocacy and evidence.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:So thank you so much for coming on the show, Michael.
Stephen Burrell:It's, really great to have you with us.
Michael Flood:Thank you.
Michael Flood:That's a very generous, introduction.
Michael Flood:And look, it's funny when I, have such biographies read out for me at a, you know, at a kind of presentation.
Michael Flood:I often sort of hasten to add that this doesn't mean I've got it all worked out.
Michael Flood:It doesn't mean I know everything or I'm some kind of perfect person.
Michael Flood:You know, there's all kinds of ways in which I stuff up and all kinds of ways in which I have much to learn.
Michael Flood:So yes, I have been doing this work for some time, but in no way does that position me as some kind of, perfect exemplar of this field or something.
Michael Flood:I'm not sure.
Stephen Burrell:Thank you.
Stephen Burrell:And perhaps we can get into some of those things more as the conversation progresses, but yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Perhaps to start off with, I guess it's fair to say that I suppose the field of work with men and boys, has grown quite substantially in recent decades, both in Australia and internationally.
Stephen Burrell:Especially I suppose in relation to the prevention of men's violence against women, but also surrounding issues like fatherhood, health and wellbeing, especially sexual and reproductive health.
Stephen Burrell:And of course, you yourself have been an important kind of driver of this work.
Stephen Burrell:so yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Why do you think it is that it has been expanding in these ways in recent decades?
Stephen Burrell:And I suppose presumably you would see that as being a good thing, and if so, why?
Stephen Burrell:Why is that a good.
Stephen Burrell:Things,
Michael Flood:Look, great question.
Michael Flood:I think there's a few things driving that expansion of work that is self-consciously focused on engaging men and boys.
Michael Flood:And, one thing to say here is, you know, work with men and boys is hardly historically new.
Michael Flood:I mean, for a long time governments and community organisations worked with husbands, worked with fathers, worked with citizens and so on.
Michael Flood:But what's new about the engaging men field is its self-conscious focus on men as men and its self-conscious and explicit attention to gender and masculinity.
Michael Flood:And yeah, certainly that's intensified in the last, two or three decades in, you know, many western countries and in fact, throughout the world.
Michael Flood:And so we see an increase in projects and initiatives, as you've said, and a proliferation of projects and organisations with a focus on engaging men and boys, an international field, and as you've said, a growing body of scholarships.
Michael Flood:So I think a few things are driving it.
Michael Flood:One is, one is feminism and the kind of women's rights and feminist attention to gender has prompted an attention as part of that to the ways in which men's lives are gendered and while the term gender.
Michael Flood:Often has been used as code for women gender issues.
Michael Flood:Sometimes they've been understood as issues that are of particular concern to women or that involve women.
Michael Flood:Of course, men and men's lives are just as gendered.
Michael Flood:Our lives are shaped just as much by the norms, the expectations, the inequalities associated with gender as women's are.
Michael Flood:So I think one thing driving attention to men and boys has been that kind of recognition, driven by feminism of the need to pay attention to men and masculinity and certainly feminism
Michael Flood:for a long time has debated and discussed, how boys are socialised, how men are raised, and how those things then play out in the, mistreatment that some men perpetrate against women.
Michael Flood:A second thing I think that's driven, this is a kind of growing attention in health and violence prevention fields to.
Michael Flood:two, two sort of men to men as a kind of social problem.
Michael Flood:So if you think, for example, of public violence, public order violence of, you know, assaults in the streets, increasingly there's a recognition that those assaults are largely
Michael Flood:by men against other men, and that they are driven in part by dynamics of masculinity.
Michael Flood:And we're seeing that same insight applied to drug abuse, to risky driving to workplace, injuries and deaths to men's involvements in parenting and so on.
Michael Flood:So I think that another thing driving the engaging men field has been the growing recognition that, again, the kind of norms, practises and structures associated with masculinity shape, those social problems.
Michael Flood:Yeah, that's kinda off the top of my head.
Michael Flood:I think, you know, there's some of the things that are driving this growing, engaging men field.
Michael Flood:Is it a good thing?
Michael Flood:Undoubtedly, I think, we should celebrate the fact that, for example, in the field of violence prevention, there's growing attention to how to shift.
Michael Flood:Attitudes and behaviours and social structural relations among men as part of prevention and in fact in particular fields.
Michael Flood:I think there are further factors that have shaped this growing attention to men and boys in the violence prevention field.
Michael Flood:For example, in the last few decades, there's been an increasing emphasis on primary prevention on the need to prevent initial perpetration and initial victimisation.
Michael Flood:So not only do we need to work with victim survivors, not only do we need to hold perpetrators accountable, but we need to change the social conditions that make domestic and sexual violence take place in the first place.
Michael Flood:And part of that, I think coming along with that shift towards primary prevention has been a growing emphasis on the need to engage men and boys in prevention.
Stephen Burrell:I suppose there's also, following on from that, I guess a kinda ever-growing.
Stephen Burrell:Body of research evidence on this work.
Stephen Burrell:Right.
Stephen Burrell:Some of which you yourself have conducted, of course.
Stephen Burrell:and, yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Could you perhaps, obviously this is quite a large topic to discuss in its in and of itself, but could you perhaps briefly lay out, you know, what you think are some of the central lessons from this
Stephen Burrell:research, I suppose, about how can we effectively, you know, and meaningfully engage with men and boys, perhaps, especially when it comes to like, the prevention of violence against women, which is
Stephen Burrell:an area that you focus in particular on, like, so, you know, what kind of tips would you give to an organisation who was starting to, you know, look to develop work of this kind, for the first time?
Michael Flood:Great question.
Michael Flood:Look, I think there's.
Michael Flood:Two broad answers.
Michael Flood:One is that any violence prevention work, whether it's aimed at men or women, or you know, trans people or other, communities, should embody what we know to be principles of effective practise in general.
Michael Flood:So, you know, work with men and boys, like work with any other community, first of all, should be informed.
Michael Flood:That is, it should incorporate both an appropriate theoretical framework.
Michael Flood:And a theory of change.
Michael Flood:It should have a sound understanding of the problem of what domestic and sexual violence and other forms of interpersonal violence look like and what drives them.
Michael Flood:What are the risk factors or predictors or determinants or drivers of those forms of violence and overlapping with that, how can they be changed?
Michael Flood:You know, how can we effectively shift those drivers or risk factors?
Michael Flood:Second, any advanced prevention work needs to be comprehensive.
Michael Flood:It needs to use multiple strategies in multiple settings at multiple levels.
Michael Flood:So one-off talks, small durations, small scale interventions are unlikely to make the change that's necessary.
Michael Flood:Third, any advanced prevention effort needs to be engaging.
Michael Flood:If it involves, work with people, as most advanced prevention interventions do, it needs to engage participants.
Michael Flood:So that means using effective strategies, whether it's face-to-face education or communications and social marketing or community mobilisation and so on.
Michael Flood:And the fourth general principle is that this work must be relevant.
Michael Flood:It must be relevant to the communities and context in which it's delivered.
Michael Flood:So I think that violence prevention work with men and boys needs to live up to those four criteria.
Michael Flood:That means, for example, if you're doing face-to-face.
Michael Flood:Work with boys and much of, the violence prevention work that happens with boys and men involves face-to-face education programmes.
Michael Flood:Then it needs to live up to what we know to be, criteria for effective practise in face-to-face education.
Michael Flood:Things like whole of institution approach.
Michael Flood:Things like engaging and interactive forms of teaching and learning.
Michael Flood:things like relevant and tailored practise and so on.
Michael Flood:But there then are, further I think lessons from, you know, three or four decades of experience in work with men and boys and scholarship and work with men and boys about what's most likely to engage men and boys in change.
Michael Flood:And we have to remember here that men and boys typically start off in a worse place than women and girls.
Michael Flood:Men and boys typically have poorer understandings of domestic and sexual violence.
Michael Flood:They are more likely to define those behaviours narrowly.
Michael Flood:They're more likely to blame the victim, more likely to excuse the perpetrator and so on.
Michael Flood:And so in a sense, we've got a harder job.
Michael Flood:When it comes to engaging men and boys, and many men and boys already feel defensive, feel blamed, and are more likely to respond with resistance and backlash to violence prevention efforts.
Michael Flood:So we have to work harder with men and boys than we may have to with women and girls in doing this work.
Michael Flood:And so one key lesson I think that's come from the last few decades is we have to emphasise the positive.
Michael Flood:We need positive and strengths-based approaches that start by start with messages that in most contexts, at least, most men and boys don't use violence against women and girls.
Michael Flood:Most men and boys treat the women and girls in their lives with respect and care.
Michael Flood:We need to appeal to men as bystanders, to other men's violence and other men's violent supportive behaviours, whether that's rape jokes or sexist comments and so on.
Michael Flood:But.
Michael Flood:Although I've said that our work with men and boys has to start with positive or strengths-based approaches that doesn't involve a kind of naive, romanticised, appeal to men and boys because we have
Michael Flood:to also recognise that there will be men and boys in the room who use violence or who condone violence.
Michael Flood:So we have to.
Michael Flood:Balance that strength-based approach with a kind of critical invitation to men to look at our own behaviour, to look at our own treatment of women and girls, and to strive for non-violence and respect in our own behaviour.
Michael Flood:So there are lessons around positive and strength-based approaches.
Michael Flood:There are lessons around, diversity.
Michael Flood:For example, there's growing acknowledgement that men and boys, like women and girls are not all the same.
Michael Flood:We need an intersectional analysis that recognises that men's and boys lives, just like those of women and girls are structured not only by gender, but by ethnicity, by class, by sexuality and so on.
Michael Flood:And so our, we need to have a diversity of approaches that are more likely to reach men from ethnic minorities, men from working class backgrounds, men who are trans, who are gay, bisexual, and so on.
Sandy Ruxton:That's a great summary of the, evidence.
Sandy Ruxton:Thanks Michael.
Sandy Ruxton:but you, mentioned, at the start that you were very positive about the growth of this work.
Sandy Ruxton:I'm encountering that, I wonder if you could say something about any concerns you might have about that move as well.
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, are there trends in violence prevention work in Australia or internationally, which you think are problematic?
Sandy Ruxton:and there are any issues that, you know, face this work, which you find particularly worrying?
Michael Flood:Look, absolutely, and look, I think there's a, there's an analogy that is very useful here.
Michael Flood:we could be talking about anti-racism, about the need to challenge, you know, white supremacy and, racist or white supremacist ideologies and groups and inequalities and.
Michael Flood:In.
Michael Flood:If we were doing that, we would be focused in this conversation on the role that white people can play in challenging racism.
Michael Flood:Because when we try to mobilise men, when we try to engage men in challenging patriarchal gender inequalities, we are engaging members of a privileged group.
Michael Flood:In challenging the basis of that privilege.
Michael Flood:Now, of course, when I say privileged group, I don't mean that all men are privileged and all women are disadvantaged because, you know, feminist intersectionality 1 0 1 tells us that's not true.
Michael Flood:And that class and ethnicity and so on also structure women's and men's and other people's lives.
Michael Flood:But as a group, men are advantaged relative to women.
Michael Flood:And so this is a delicate politics.
Michael Flood:Engaging men involves a delicate politics.
Michael Flood:And there are some risks here.
Michael Flood:There are some risks here of attention to men and boys.
Michael Flood:Pushing aside the hard one and still vital work, focused on women and girls.
Michael Flood:And so for example, you know, one of my concerns about the engaging men field and about work with men and boys in violence prevention at least, is it may have
Michael Flood:diminished the legitimacy of women only and women focused programmes and groups.
Michael Flood:And certainly anecdotally, some women's groups and networks report that they now feel under pressure to include men to kind of open up specific groups or specific programmes to men.
Michael Flood:And I'm all for working with men.
Michael Flood:I've been a cheerleader for working with men for a long time, as you know, but I still think that we have to protect and respect, women only and women focused programmes and services as well.
Michael Flood:So that's one issue is diminishing legitimacy of women focused.
Michael Flood:Efforts.
Michael Flood:A second concern is invalidating and marginalising women's voices and women's expertise.
Michael Flood:Now, I don't think this has happened very often, but I think there is a risk that increasingly, so women's voices are marginalised and there's a sense, oh, we have to hear from the men.
Michael Flood:And you know, that can kind of push aside.
Michael Flood:I think the leadership of women in putting issues of domestic and sexual violence on the agenda, these are risks.
Michael Flood:I don't think these are risks that have really been realised.
Michael Flood:If we look at the engaging men field in Australia and internationally in general, there is a strong emphasis on the need for accountability.
Michael Flood:That is the need for respectful and collaborative and gender equitable relations with women and women's rights groups.
Michael Flood:There's a respect for women's movement, leadership and acknowledgement of the work that's been done.
Michael Flood:But there is nevertheless a risk here.
Michael Flood:And a third issue I would say is kind of.
Michael Flood:You know, we live in a patriarchal society.
Michael Flood:Well, countries across the world are patriarchal countries and patriarchal dynamics, also can shape the efforts of men to challenge patriarchy.
Michael Flood:So, for example, there are sometimes dynamics where men who do the work are put on a pedestal, put on a pedestal, and given praise and attention out of proportion to our
Michael Flood:efforts and out of proportion to the praise and attention given to women's efforts.
Michael Flood:And again, dynamics of tokenism, of collusion and so on.
Michael Flood:So, part of the work, part of the work of engaging men, and of men taking up issues of gender inequality, of violence against women is being attentive to the kind of gender dynamics which can structure that work.
Sandy Ruxton:I think you've, Also said, you know, there is an issue of whether men may take over what has been seen as women's roles, women's work, but actually
Sandy Ruxton:the problem in your view is more that men don't turn up to, to do this work at all.
Michael Flood:Yeah, that's right.
Michael Flood:I think that's more often the problem, at least.
Michael Flood:yeah.
Michael Flood:Look, one, one of the problems of the engaging men field, I think, is that often the work is done by women.
Michael Flood:So in Australia, for example, the, White Ribbon campaign, the international campaign, for men to show their commitment to ending violence against women that exists in Australia.
Michael Flood:And in fact, the Australian White Ribbon Campaign is one of the largest campaigns in the world.
Michael Flood:And in 2016, for example, there was something like 800 events around the country in the name of the White Ribbon campaign.
Michael Flood:You know, a very significant kind of community mobilisation.
Michael Flood:But two thirds of those events were organised by women, not men.
Michael Flood:And there's a problem here of men not turning up.
Michael Flood:Now it's understandable that men.
Michael Flood:You know, don't necessarily recognise this issue as personally relevant to them.
Michael Flood:Whereas women are much more likely to go, oh yes, you know, I will tone up, I'll support this effort.
Michael Flood:But that's a problem.
Michael Flood:And certainly with the White Ribbon campaign, other efforts to engage men and boys in violence prevention should be working their hardest to make sure that they're engaging men in particular, and that men are doing the work.
Michael Flood:That there's not a dynamic where it's women who organise the event, women who make the cakes and book the, you know, book the microphone and so on, and then it's men
Michael Flood:in front of the microphone getting the status and attention on the day of the event.
Michael Flood:Mm-hmm.
Sandy Ruxton:Yeah.
Sandy Ruxton:I guess, at the heart of that, there's, the tension isn't there in, involving men in working to, to some extent dismantle their own power and privilege, isn't there?
Sandy Ruxton:So, you know, that's right.
Sandy Ruxton:And this is the politics of.
Michael Flood:Sorry after you.
Sandy Ruxton:Well, I was just gonna say there are, lots of opportunities for things to go wrong and for mistakes to be made.
Sandy Ruxton:And I wondered if you could say a little bit about some of the problems and, you know, what are some of the key missteps, men and organisations working with men, should seek to avoid in your view?
Michael Flood:Yeah, sure.
Michael Flood:Look, I think a key concept here, well, two key concepts.
Michael Flood:One is allyship, but really what we're talking about is the practise of allyship.
Michael Flood:And there's a well-developed, I think, body of experience and increasingly of scholarship of what that looks like.
Michael Flood:Particularly, for example, for white people, seeking to be anti-racist allies and to some extent for heterosexual people seeking to be allies to lbt LGBTQ plus people as well.
Michael Flood:So in the field of gender issues, we can draw lessons from that and.
Michael Flood:The key, I think the key principle here is that allies should be accountable, to members of the relevant disadvantaged group.
Michael Flood:And the reason that's important is because members of the disadvantaged group, in this case, women typically have a better understanding of the systems of oppression we are trying to address.
Michael Flood:And, in relation to gender politics, men are socialised away from accountability.
Michael Flood:We're socialised towards an alignment with other men, towards a bonding with other men, and towards looking towards other men for status and approval and so on.
Michael Flood:And without women's voices, without women's leadership, even well-intentioned men and men's groups can reinforce sexism and can do harm.
Michael Flood:So for me, accountability simply means working in gender equitable ways, working in a gender equitable way.
Michael Flood:And we can see that at three levels.
Michael Flood:And so when it goes wrong.
Michael Flood:At the personal level, male advocates use violence and abuse ourselves, or we collude with violence and, abuse at the relational level to the level of interactions.
Michael Flood:When there's no accountability, then what it looks like is men dominating, in meetings and networks, whether are women, men's voice being given priority over women, women
Michael Flood:supporting and nurturing men, providing emotional labour, and men not doing that for women.
Michael Flood:Then at the institutional level, at the level of relations between groups where there's no accountability, then men's groups take action, which is harmful for women.
Michael Flood:They take funding and resources away from women and women's groups, or even, worst of all, men's groups use strategies that make gender inequalities and make violence worse Now.
Michael Flood:Some of those things have happened some of the time.
Michael Flood:I think in general, the engaging men field has taken seriously the need for accountability, although, you know, there have been some of these problems in, you know, in certain contexts.
Michael Flood:So what accountability looks like then is at the personal level.
Michael Flood:Looking at our own behaviour and seeking to, you know, behave nonviolently.
Michael Flood:That's the bottom line.
Michael Flood:To behave nonviolently and gender equitably.
Michael Flood:at the relational level, it means striving for gender, equitable dynamics, gender equitable processes and interaction.
Michael Flood:So I'm thinking here of who voices get heard, who decides and who leads, who does the lace low status work, whose efforts are given attention and so on.
Michael Flood:Then at the institutional level, so we've got personal, we've got relational, and then institutional.
Michael Flood:At the institutional level, what I'm thinking of is structures of consultation and collaboration.
Michael Flood:So if you're involved in a men's group or network, it means.
Michael Flood:Talking to women and women's rights organisations before seeking funding.
Michael Flood:So you're not taking funding away from or competing for funding, with women's groups and networks.
Stephen Burrell:One, one thing I was wondering, Michael, based on what you were saying there, when you were talking earlier about, you know, men sometimes being put on a pedestal, you
Stephen Burrell:know, for, because not that many men do speak about these issues and so it can as much as anything be quite rare when, a man does that and that can be lauded and so on and so forth.
Stephen Burrell:And I feel like I've been aware of that, you know, in my own, when I've been speaking and things sometimes when doing this work.
Stephen Burrell:And, I suppose, yeah, I mean, do you have any advice or like strategies in terms of like, you know, what do you do with that?
Stephen Burrell:Like as a man, like if you're aware that you're getting a lot of, you know, perhaps undeserved praise or you know, where you just feel like actually this should be shared out, you know, more,
Stephen Burrell:more equally more with women, like, you know, do you have any approaches to dealing with that?
Stephen Burrell:And it's difficult, isn't it?
Stephen Burrell:Because like, I suppose we should be encouraging and celebrating men speaking out, because obviously that is something we want more men to do, but yeah, like do you have any ways of dealing with that kind of, Yeah, I,
Michael Flood:I do.
Michael Flood:And look, my own experience in, in doing this work over a long time is getting two kinds, two very different kinds of reactions.
Michael Flood:On the one hand, the kind of excessive praise, you know, it's so wonderful that you're doing this.
Michael Flood:I wish there were more men like you, that kind of thing.
Michael Flood:And on the other, a kind of suspicion or distrust, you know, who the hell are you?
Michael Flood:Why should we trust you?
Michael Flood:And so on.
Michael Flood:And both responses from women are very understandable and, you know, shouldn't themselves be criticised.
Michael Flood:But I think there are ways to respond, particularly to the first one, that, that kind of pedestal effect we've described.
Michael Flood:And so I think humility is important.
Michael Flood:I think acknowledging, our own flawed nature, our own, you know, the fact that we are merely human, I think, disavowing any kind of.
Michael Flood:You know, disavowing any sense that we're perfect or those kinds of things.
Michael Flood:acknowledging women's leadership is important.
Michael Flood:Acknowledging women's voices, handing the microphone to women and using the praise or attention we're given to amplify women's voices.
Michael Flood:I suppose they're some of the strategies, I've used, to try to diminish that kind of pedestal effect.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:just moving focus a little bit, you wrote a great paper in 2015 where you provided a kind of a critical stock take of the field of engaging men.
Stephen Burrell:And, an issue which has come up a few times on our podcast, and actually, you and I were speaking at a, about it earlier, at a White Ribbon Australia event.
Stephen Burrell:it's like how best to address, I suppose, issues of masculinity or the kind of concept of masculinity.
Stephen Burrell:because I suppose the term toxic masculinity has become quite popular in public discourse in recent years.
Stephen Burrell:but equally we also see lots of organisations now who are working with men and boys.
Stephen Burrell:Using ideas such as that of healthy masculinity or positive masculinity.
Stephen Burrell:so yeah, I mean, what do you think about these concepts?
Stephen Burrell:Like do you think they're useful or is there a risk of reinforcing men's investments in masculinity when actually that's something which we should probably be seeking to like unpick or maybe even try to move away from altogether?
Stephen Burrell:Like, yeah.
Stephen Burrell:What do you think about what's the best, approach there?
Michael Flood:Look, it's a very live issue and I think we can it in some ways.
Michael Flood:Let's talk first about the problem and then let's talk about the solution.
Michael Flood:So, if we think about the problem, yet, the phrase toxic masculinity is ubiquitous now, and that is very new.
Michael Flood:It really only came into widespread public circulation in about 2015.
Michael Flood:And the term itself, this will be surprising for some listeners, the term doesn't originate in feminist discussions of men and men's behaviour.
Michael Flood:It originates instead in attention to men's health and attention to the limits placed on men themselves by narrow or stereotypical norms of masculinity.
Michael Flood:And it really had a currency in kind of men's health and men's movement circles for some time in the nineties before it, has, you know, taken off in popular discussion, in the 2010s.
Michael Flood:And I have mixed feelings about the term.
Michael Flood:so, you know, I mean, simplistically.
Michael Flood:The term refers to one particular version of how to be a man.
Michael Flood:One particular set of expectations about manhood that is toxic, that is bad for men themselves because it limits men's own health, men's relations with women, with children, and so on and bad for women because it shapes men's involvements
Michael Flood:in sexism, in violence, in other forms of abusive and half of behaviour towards women, towards men, and so on.
Michael Flood:So a synonym for the synonyms, for the term toxic masculinity would be terms like sexist or patriarchal or dominant masculinity, or in scholarship hegemonic masculinity.
Michael Flood:You know, there's set of expectations that men must be dominant men.
Michael Flood:Men must be aggressive in control, tough, daring, stoic, and so on.
Michael Flood:But one.
Michael Flood:Problem that we regularly encounter with the term is that many men don't understand the term in those, in that sense at all.
Michael Flood:Many men understand the term toxic masculinity as synonymous with men, that any criticism of masculinity is a criticism of men, per se, of men in general.
Michael Flood:So they kind of miss the key point about the phrase that it's referring to one particular version of masculinity.
Michael Flood:It's like the phrase toxic food.
Michael Flood:It's not saying there's something wrong with food in general.
Michael Flood:It's saying there's a problem with this particular form of food, which is toxic.
Michael Flood:So I, think the phrase is useful.
Michael Flood:In part because it emphasises that the problem is a social problem.
Michael Flood:The problem is one of how boys and men are socialised.
Michael Flood:It highlights that one version of how to be a man is unhealthy or dangerous, and there may be other versions of how to be a man that are positive and useful.
Michael Flood:And it rests on a, an insight which has considerable scholarly support, an insight that stereotypical or traditional masculine norms shape men's behaviour, shape men's involvement in violence, in fathering and health and so on.
Michael Flood:But the term also has some risks, as I've said, a risk of kind of misperception where men in general feel blamed and attacked.
Michael Flood:It also may imply that the only problem with dominant versions of masculinity is the harms they impose among men themselves.
Michael Flood:That they're, you know, that the cost they, involve in terms of male disadvantage and not also in terms of male privilege.
Michael Flood:Also, I've seen the term used in kind of generalising and homogenising ways.
Michael Flood:But let's get to the solution.
Michael Flood:Another risk of the term to masculinity is it may imply that the solution therefore is healthy or positive masculinity.
Michael Flood:And if we look at the engaging men field in general and the preventing violence against women field in particular, across those, we see an increasing use of the phrases healthy masculinity or positive masculinity.
Michael Flood:And I have mixed feelings about that phrase.
Michael Flood:On the one hand, I see strategic value or pragmatic value in offering to men and boys.
Michael Flood:A version of how to be a man that is based on positive or healthy qualities.
Michael Flood:Where we frame manhood, we try to redefine manhood as based in gender equality, in non-violence, in respect, in nurturance, in compassion, and so on.
Michael Flood:In other words, we identify the desirable qualities we wish to see among men and boys, and we phrase those as healthier, positive masculinities, and we appeal to men in terms of those.
Michael Flood:But there's a number of obvious problems here.
Michael Flood:One is, as you've said, Stephen, that we are.
Michael Flood:Sustaining, if not intensifying, men's investments in being seen as properly masculine.
Michael Flood:And part of the problems of men's violence against women.
Michael Flood:Part of the problem of domestic and sexual violence is men's investments in being seen as real men's investments in being properly perceived as masculine.
Michael Flood:And part of our goal, I think, should actually be to encourage men to disinvest in gendered identities and to break down the gender binary, to break down kinda rigid ideas that these
Michael Flood:qualities are desirable for males and these other qualities are desirable for females.
Michael Flood:And there's a risk here of a kind of essentialism in which we imply that, you know, qualities of, you know, non-violence or nurturance and so on should be available only to men and boys, and not also to women and girls.
Michael Flood:And so I have this kind of, you know, ambivalence.
Michael Flood:I think we need a kind of both and strategy where.
Michael Flood:In sometimes and places, I think we should talk about healthy or positive masculinity very pragmatically because many, boys, at the moment in many countries still have some sense of investment in being seen as a boy, being seen as a man.
Michael Flood:And we have to kind of manage that.
Michael Flood:I think it's premature to expect men and boys to abandon kind of gendered identities and gendered investments, in those notions at this point.
Michael Flood:On the other hand, I think we also need to encourage.
Michael Flood:A kind of de gendering strategy, and we need to explicitly challenge gender binaries and whatever we do, we certainly need to avoid any implication that the positive qualities we're
Michael Flood:seeking to nurture, are only available to men and boys, not also available to women and girls.
Sandy Ruxton:Mm-hmm.
Sandy Ruxton:But that makes a lot of sense to me actually.
Sandy Ruxton:I wanted to ask a, rider to that, which is, you know, when, you look at this, these issues from a sort of project programme.
Sandy Ruxton:Point of view, and you're working on the ground and you've got men coming into your centre or whatever, you know, it's probably a lot easier to go with the sort of positive,
Sandy Ruxton:healthy masculinity framing than to explain and, work with the notion of disinvestment.
Sandy Ruxton:is that a, is that an issue where, you know, intellectually it's, I it totally makes sense to disinvest in the longer term, but when, faced with a reality on the ground, you may find it different.
Michael Flood:That I think that's part of it.
Michael Flood:I think it's also possible to encourage, if you like, a kind of disinvestment or what some people call a feminist androgyny strategy, a de gendering or feminist androgyny strategy from the get go.
Michael Flood:But I don't think, you know, I don't think it would be smart to do that in highly intellectualised or overtly politicised ways.
Michael Flood:I think there's very everyday ways.
Michael Flood:To do that, to say, you know, who, gives a stuff, whether you know you're perceived as a man or a woman, it kind of doesn't matter as long as you are, you know, living a good life or behaving well.
Michael Flood:I'm not modelling this very well, but I think there are very everyday ways to engagement and boys and kind of thinking a bit beyond gender binaries and gender categories as well.
Stephen Burrell:Mm-hmm.
Stephen Burrell:One thing I suppose connected to that, and maybe going back to what we were discussing earlier in terms of the kind of development of like violence prevention work with men and boys.
Stephen Burrell:like are there any particular developments or trends or maybe specific examples of this work which give you hope, you know, which give you a real cause for optimism?
Stephen Burrell:Like are there particular examples or particular trends you've seen within this field of work which really make you feel like, yeah, we really are making progress here and we really are.
Stephen Burrell:Having an impact?
Michael Flood:Look, I, think, we are starting to see in the field a a greater sophistication in the kinds of strategies that are used and a sophistication about the kind of political and theoretical frameworks that guide those strategies.
Michael Flood:So, for example, I think there's a growing kind of richness in, various strategies for engaging men and boys on the ground, where facilitators and educators and advocates are
Michael Flood:engaging with men in really kind of deep, compassionate ways, but also in critical ways.
Michael Flood:I think we're moving beyond some of the kind of, simplistic and kind of naively optimistic approaches that.
Michael Flood:Perhaps, you know, were more evident, you know, as this field first started taking off in the eighties and nineties, I think that the interventions themselves are getting more sophisticated.
Michael Flood:So, for example, they're increasing in duration.
Michael Flood:We're seeing a move away from the kind of one-off talk, the one-off lecture to multi-session programmes and programmes that engagement and boys in much more interactive and participatory ways than they used to.
Michael Flood:I think another thing that I'm excited by is the growing use of community level strategies.
Michael Flood:So rather than strategies that only engage a particular group of boys in a particular setting, we're seeing strategies that, seek to engage entire communities that work with a particular, this is particularly
Michael Flood:in the global south, actually, some of the best work is happening in countries in the global south, rather than in countries like mine and Australia, where we're seeing community level strategies that.
Michael Flood:seek to engage large numbers of the community in taking ownership of questions of violence prevention and getting involved in networks and projects where men and boys are part of that engagement.
Michael Flood:And so part of the work is, you know, training up, male, community leaders or religious leaders or local political leaders.
Michael Flood:Part of that work is seeking to identify, everyday men in the community who are already advocates, who already treat the women and girls in their lives with respect and care, and mobilising them as advocates and so on.
Michael Flood:So I think, yeah, off the top of my head at least, I think these are some examples of a growing.
Michael Flood:A kind of robustness and sophistication in the work with men and boys.
Michael Flood:Another example is, online that, you know, there's growing recognition that online communities, on the one hand are spaces where boys and men sometimes are radicalised into sexism, into misogyny,
Michael Flood:whether that's through pornography or through the, you know, misogynist social influences like Andrew Tate or in other toxic or men's rights advocacy that is anti-feminist spaces on the one hand.
Michael Flood:On the other hand, there's growing recognition that online spaces and tools also are vital measures to engage men and boys in positive change.
Michael Flood:And so we're starting to see, I think, a kind of first generation of online educational tools and online communication and social marketing strategies that seek to use the power
Michael Flood:of the internet and the reach of the internet to engage men and boys in positive change.
Michael Flood:Last strategy I'll mention, which I think is exciting, is we're starting to see a growing focus on holding our political leaders accountable.
Michael Flood:Much of the work with men and boys, has focused on men and boys, in fact, who are relatively disadvantaged, ordinary men and boys, ordinary citizens, you know, disadvantaged indigenous or ethnic minority boys and so on.
Michael Flood:And ob.
Michael Flood:Obviously, all those forms of work are important, but we also need to hold the most powerful cohorts of men and boys to account.
Michael Flood:So inviting male political and economic leaders.
Michael Flood:or in fact pressuring those leaders to institute gender equality and violence prevention policies at a state level, at an international level, and so on.
Michael Flood:So we see some good work by organisations in South Africa organisations in other countries starting to pay attention to the kind of structures of power, the structures of patriarchal
Michael Flood:power, in government, in, national, international organ economic organisations and elsewhere.
Sandy Ruxton:You mentioned a minute ago there, the, whole relationship between pornography and violence, Michael, and, this is obviously a pretty contested field, but I was wondering if you wanted to say a little bit more about that work.
Sandy Ruxton:'cause you ha you have done some research on that as well.
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, why is it important to address pornography when thinking about issues such as sexual violence?
Sandy Ruxton:What, are some of the impacts it has on men and boys?
Michael Flood:Sure.
Michael Flood:Look, the, simple thing I would say is that, pornography is that the use of pornography is well documented as a risk factor for boys and young men's perpetration.
Michael Flood:In fact, boys and men's, not necessarily young men's boys and men's perpetration of sexual violence.
Michael Flood:And there is a. A consistent and increasingly large body of evidence from experimental studies, from correlational studies, from longitudinal studies that track people over time,
Michael Flood:an increasing body of evidence that pornography consumption feeds into sexual violence.
Michael Flood:It's not the only thing that causes sexual violence and it doesn't.
Michael Flood:Pornography use doesn't inevitably cause sexual violence, but it makes the perpetration of sexual violence more likely, and we know that, for example, pornography shapes.
Michael Flood:It's uses sexual attitudes.
Michael Flood:It shapes, the attitudes, for example, that young men have towards particular sexual practises.
Michael Flood:It shapes their interest in sexual practises, and more importantly, it shapes their behaviour.
Michael Flood:It shapes young men's interest in, for example, the practise of strangulation, of strangling their sexual partners.
Michael Flood:It shapes young men's interest in anal intercourse.
Michael Flood:Now, there's no problem with anal intercourse.
Michael Flood:The problem is when young men expect that their partners will have anal intercourse with them and pressure or coerce their partners into the, into that practise.
Michael Flood:We know that pornography also shapes sexist attitudes and sexist behaviours.
Michael Flood:It shapes how boys and men see girls and women, and it shapes how girls and women see themselves.
Michael Flood:And finally, there's good evidence that pornography shapes sexually aggressive.
Michael Flood:and violent supportive attitudes and behaviours.
Michael Flood:And in fact, there's a circular relationship between pornography and sexual aggression.
Michael Flood:Take a 16-year-old boy, for example, who already see girl sees girls and women as sexual objects and already has some predisposition towards sexual violence.
Michael Flood:He's more likely to be attracted to pornography, particularly that shows violence, and it will have a greater impact on him than a different 16-year-old boy who has much more gender equitable and anti-violence attitudes.
Michael Flood:When that 16-year-old boy encounters pornography and much pornography is sexist and violence supportive in its content, when that more gender equitable, 16-year-old boy
Michael Flood:encounters pornography, he's more likely to reject it, less likely to be influenced by it.
Michael Flood:So there's a circular relationship between pornography and sexual aggression, but if someone says to you that we don't know if pornography shapes sexual violence, or the jury is out, I would say very bluntly that they're, either ignorant.
Michael Flood:Or dishonest because there is a wealth of evidence, and I've certainly, you know, written this up, a wealth of evidence that pornography is one driver, one risk factor for sexual violence, perpetration.
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, I've, had, several parents talk to me recently and say, you know, how do I initiate a sort of meaningful conversation with, boys, young men, my son, about this whole area?
Sandy Ruxton:I'm wondering if there's advice that you'd give to parents in this regard, perhaps not just about, you know, pornography, but also about some of the, Andrew Tate issues as well.
Michael Flood:absolutely.
Michael Flood:Look, look, I've given workshops for parents on, young people's pornography use and what to do about it.
Michael Flood:And I've had this, had these fascinating conversations with parents afterwards where a parent comes up and says, for example, my 15-year-old son is looking at pornography.
Michael Flood:what type of pornography should he be looking at?
Michael Flood:I think that's a really interesting question and I think if, you know, if our sons or if we are gonna look at pornography, then at the very least we should try to make sure that the pornography we are consuming doesn't show,
Michael Flood:doesn't show choking, doesn't show physical aggression, doesn't show verbally degrading and insulting language.
Michael Flood:You know, shows consent, shows pleasure, shows a diversity of bodies and so on.
Michael Flood:And at the moment, the attention.
Michael Flood:In the community and in the industry to ethical pornography, ethical pornography is focused primarily on the conditions of production.
Michael Flood:Are the actors, the performers in pornography being paid?
Michael Flood:is the health being predicted?
Michael Flood:But I think we also need to look at the content of pornography and the conditions of use of pornography as well.
Michael Flood:And 'cause there's forms of pornography use that are coercive and so on.
Michael Flood:But in terms of those, in terms of your question about parents, I think parents have an absolutely vital role to play in having those conversations, particularly to our sons, to to our boys and young men.
Michael Flood:About questions of, gender roles, questions of sex, questions of sexuality, and so on.
Michael Flood:And we have to tailor those to their age.
Michael Flood:So with a, you know, with an 8-year-old boy conversations about bodily respect and about, you know, not pinching his sister, if she's asking him not to or about, his
Michael Flood:own rights to his body and that he doesn't have to hug grandma if he doesn't want to.
Michael Flood:That's a different kind of conversation from the conversation we might have with a 15 or 16-year-old son about the pornography that they inevitably will be encountering at school or among their
Michael Flood:peers or elsewhere, and the kind of sexist messages they may be getting online and elsewhere.
Michael Flood:I think parents, as I've said, have a key role to play first by having those conversations about having everyday conversations, not one, not a one-off talk,
Michael Flood:but regular conversations about issues of gender, respect, consent, and so on.
Michael Flood:And second, by being good role models ourselves.
Michael Flood:You know, I think about this as a parent myself.
Michael Flood:I've got two kids and I think about how I model, Respect and care and so on, in how I talk, for example, about their mother, how I treat their mother.
Michael Flood:and, you know, modelling equity and non-violence ourselves is a second key role that we can play.
Michael Flood:And so, you know, I think parents have a vital role to play.
Michael Flood:And what I hope that we will see, in fact in the engaging men field is a greater invitation for men as fathers, to play that role in nurturing non-violence, nurturing gender equity among our sons, daughters, and other children.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah, this kind of connects, I think, Michael, to some of your earliest research on heterosexuality among men.
Stephen Burrell:And, so I think maybe your, PhD research was on this topic, for example.
Stephen Burrell:So yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Could you perhaps say a little bit about, you know, what you found there?
Stephen Burrell:Obviously, probably quite hard to summarise briefly, but yeah, to do with how like men's sexual relations with women can be important ways in which men try to kind of prove our masculinity to each other and to try and bond with other men.
Stephen Burrell:You know, through those sexual relations with women.
Stephen Burrell:yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Could you just say a little bit about, that?
Michael Flood:Sure.
Michael Flood:Look, my, my PhD was on why young men, young heterosexual men do or don't use condoms with their female partners.
Michael Flood:So it's, it was focused on young, heterosexual men and safe and unsafe sex.
Michael Flood:And I won't try to summarise everything I found, but there was this dynamic that I documented that I, you know, that really stood out.
Michael Flood:And it was a dynamic among only some of the young men I interviewed.
Michael Flood:These were in-depth interviews with young men about their sexual lives, and this was a dynamic where for some of these men, their male, male relations, their relations
Michael Flood:with other men had a strong impact on their sexual and social relations with women.
Michael Flood:And there were four, four elements to this.
Michael Flood:One was that for some of these young men, their male friendships.
Michael Flood:Took priority.
Michael Flood:They talked about mates before dates, or I think the American phrase is bros before hoes.
Michael Flood:In other words, your male friends come first and in fact, friendships with women were seen as dangerously feminising.
Michael Flood:You can't really be friends with women.
Michael Flood:that was the case for some of these men.
Michael Flood:It was particularly the case for a couple of men who were from a military university, and who lived and kind of thrived in this highly male dominated homosocial.
Michael Flood:Some male focus, not homosexual, but homosocial environment.
Michael Flood:So that was one thing.
Michael Flood:It was male friendships took priority.
Michael Flood:A second dynamic among these men was that sex with women was a key path to status among men.
Michael Flood:In other words, you really got status among your male peers by, for example, scoring sex with a particularly attractive bar mate at the local pub, the local bar, or by other kind of sexual feats or sexual conquests with women.
Michael Flood:third sex with women was a means to male bonding.
Michael Flood:So some men, in fact, these two men who were good male friends, talked about bonding with each other through their sex with women and their kind of shared stories of sex with women.
Michael Flood:And a final dynamic was the telling of sexual stories that these men would get together on a Sunday night after their weekends.
Michael Flood:And they told stories about fighting, literally about, you know, about fights with other men.
Michael Flood:They told stories about drinking and they told stories about, another f about sex with women.
Michael Flood:And those stories were, you know, kind of boastful stories about this sexual conquest.
Michael Flood:They weren't tender, gentle stories about this lovely time they had and how much they cared for this woman, which is, you know, a kind of sexual story that some men may tell.
Michael Flood:these were kind of boastful stories oriented towards sexism, towards sexual objectification.
Michael Flood:And they repeated some of these stories to me, and these were.
Michael Flood:Some of these stories were deeply disturbing stories about the kind of ritualised humiliation of women for men's amusement.
Michael Flood:And so the point of all this is that these dynamics were really troubling.
Michael Flood:These were dynamics between men that shaped their sexual relations with women.
Michael Flood:And I'm not wanting to say that these are universal dynamics.
Michael Flood:There were other men I interviewed that spoke about women and spoke about their relations with other men in very different ways.
Michael Flood:These were lovely men.
Michael Flood:I happily would've, you know, set my sister up with some of these men.
Michael Flood:These were, you know, these were, kind of sweet men or just, you know, other types of men.
Michael Flood:But there was a. A number of men who, lived his kind of highly homosocial, sexist lives and bringing this back to men's sexual violence against women.
Michael Flood:It's very well documented in scholarship that male peer support is an important influence on men's perpetration of sexual violence.
Michael Flood:In other words, men who've got friends, men who've got friends or mates to use the Australian term, who themselves are sexually aggressive, who themselves either tolerate or perpetrate
Michael Flood:sexual violence against women are much more likely to be sexual violence themselves.
Michael Flood:And there's two things going on here.
Michael Flood:One is about peer reinforcement that if you, know, hanging out with your male friends and they are reinforcing your own sexually aggressive attitudes and behaviours that intensifies, that increases
Michael Flood:your own likelihood of using sexual violence against your female I partner or against another woman.
Michael Flood:And another dynamic here is self-selection.
Michael Flood:That is actively men actively choosing to go into.
Michael Flood:Peer groups or settings that will support those behaviours.
Michael Flood:So for example, there's been some really interesting research on fraternities, on all male, residences on American university campuses.
Michael Flood:And it's well documented that men in all male fraternities on American college campuses, more likely to perpetrate sexual violence than men in other contexts.
Michael Flood:Not all men, hashtag not all men, but there's a greater likelihood of sexual violence perpetration.
Michael Flood:And one factor shaping that is self-selection, where men gravitate to contexts that where their own attitudes and behaviours will be reinforced.
Michael Flood:And so in terms of violence prevention, one of the things we need to do is disrupt the male dynamics that feed into violence.
Michael Flood:We need to encourage men to hold each other to account, to call each other out, to say, Hey, that's not okay.
Michael Flood:We don't treat women like that around here, mate.
Michael Flood:That's not, you know, that's not an okay way to behave and so on.
Michael Flood:And in fact, men often overestimate.
Michael Flood:Other men's tolerance, other men's support for sexual violence.
Michael Flood:And so bystander intervention strategies get men to speak up to be pro-social bystanders who will speak up when some oth other man makes a rape joke or makes a
Michael Flood:comment that shows that he's, you know, treating women in a sexist or violent way.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah, I'm really interested to ask you about what you found in terms of men's use of, condoms, but I we're running rapidly outta time, so perhaps we'll have to have another
Stephen Burrell:episode of the podcast review down the line, or people could seek out your PhD thesis perhaps.
Stephen Burrell:because,
Michael Flood:well, don't look at the thesis.
Michael Flood:Look at, you know, I've written a decent summary of that piece.
Michael Flood:I've written a journal article called Lust Trust and Latex, and that highlights.
Michael Flood:Three of the four main reasons that structured men's, unsafe sex, men's non-use of condoms.
Michael Flood:So a journal article called, Lust Trust and latex and I, won't spoil how each of those plays out.
Michael Flood:Thanks
Stephen Burrell:Oh no.
Stephen Burrell:Now I'm in suspense, about finding out more.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Sandy Ruxton:Great title by the way.
Stephen Burrell:yeah.
Stephen Burrell:but yes, we, are rapidly running outta time and we do always like to also quiz our guests a little bit on their, kind of the personal side of doing this work.
Stephen Burrell:So, and of course, you, as we said at the beginning, you have been involved in kind of pro-feminist anti-violence activism in Australia for several decades now.
Stephen Burrell:yeah.
Stephen Burrell:And I appreciate this is perhaps a question you might have been asked quite a lot, but could you perhaps tell us a little bit about how it was that you first did get involved in this work?
Stephen Burrell:And like, why was it that you first.
Stephen Burrell:Got involved.
Stephen Burrell:Like how did that, come about?
Michael Flood:Yeah, good question.
Michael Flood:And look, I have been asked this question before because it's relatively, at least, it used to be relatively unusual for men to be involved in pro-feminist anti-violence activism.
Michael Flood:And it's tempting to offer some kind of essentialist narrative.
Michael Flood:I've always been the kind of person who this, or I was born with these kind of orientations.
Michael Flood:I don't think that's true and I've kind of.
Michael Flood:You know, I suppose tried to figure out how I came to the values and commitments that have been motivating for me, and I'm not really sure.
Michael Flood:I've certainly got some guesses, but the fact is that as a teenager at 16, 17, 18, I was running around, I wore a peace badge and I was running around with this kind
Michael Flood:of twin narratives of wanting to be a good person and wanting to change the world.
Michael Flood:So I had some kind of ethical and activist oriented narrative from fairly early on, and I've got some guesses as to, you know, what in my family background or other experience might have, nurtured that.
Michael Flood:But in any case, that kind of activist, narrative meant that when I, when I was 17, 18, when I went to university, I got involved in the anti-nuclear movement.
Michael Flood:I got involved in left-wing student politics and feminist women were the backbone of the group in which I was involved.
Michael Flood:So I was going out with feminist women, I was being challenged on my sexism as were other men in the group.
Michael Flood:I, for some reason, decided to do what was at the time called women's studies now would be called, you know, gender studies or feminist studies.
Michael Flood:And so I was being exposed to feminist scholarship and also to sort of social justice, issues in sociology as well as in my political activism.
Michael Flood:For some reason, at the age of 20, I joined a men's group, an anti-sexist men's group.
Michael Flood:After I saw an ad, I literally saw a, you know, a kind of flyer stuck on a wall and went along to a community meeting and ended up in a men's group.
Michael Flood:With seven other men where we had a kind of strong pro-feminist orientation.
Michael Flood:Half of the men were gay or bisexual, and there was a kinda shared feminist politics.
Michael Flood:And we met for I think two years, every second Tuesday for about three hours.
Michael Flood:And it was based on critical feminist consciousness raising.
Michael Flood:So we explored violence and pornography and sexism and fathering and body image and so on.
Michael Flood:So those experiences were transformative.
Michael Flood:and they built on those kind of earlier narratives and really they and other experiences for me nurtured a kind of lifelong passion, a lifelong passion for, you know, contributing
Michael Flood:to personal and social change, particularly on issues of gender and sexuality.
Michael Flood:And I feel incredibly fortunate to have had this kind of guiding passion for so long and.
Michael Flood:Now to, you know, be able to pay my rent, by doing work related to those passions.
Sandy Ruxton:Sounds so, so similar to the journey that, some of our other interviewees have gone on actually, and particularly Bob Pease talked about the same.
Sandy Ruxton:Same kind of initiatives that he was part of as well.
Sandy Ruxton:So, and the role of education is, fascinating.
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, you know, regular listeners will know that, Stephen and I, and other people were involved in, writing a book about the sort of pathways that, that men follow to anti-violence activism.
Sandy Ruxton:And in that book, you know, education and, university studies were a key part of that.
Sandy Ruxton:But, I wanted to, just finish by asking you something slightly related, but, but different, which is how, do you, keep going?
Sandy Ruxton:How do you maintain your sense of dedication to this work?
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, you mentioned when we were talking just before we, we started recording the podcast that, you know, the potential for overwork is really quite, significant.
Sandy Ruxton:and of course, you know, when we're talking about issues for men, overwork is a big.
Sandy Ruxton:Problem.
Sandy Ruxton:So, I wondered if you wanted to comment on that finally.
Michael Flood:Yeah, look, I mean, I think I keep going.
Michael Flood:I mean, I think I feel incredibly fortunate that I seem to have this kind of stable and deep sense of passion for this work.
Michael Flood:And I'll certainly continue to do this, you know, for the rest of my life.
Michael Flood:And that feels incredibly fortunate.
Michael Flood:So I've never had a kind of significant kind of crisis of faith or a sense of, no, I wanna do something else now.
Michael Flood:I wanna move to some other area altogether.
Michael Flood:I no longer wanna try to contribute to this work.
Michael Flood:and that, you know, that feels very sustaining, but it's not a purely individual pursuit.
Michael Flood:And I, wrote a piece.
Michael Flood:About, living a pro-feminist life for a, book on antis sexism, I contributed a chapter on living a pro-feminist life.
Michael Flood:And one of the things I said there is that doing this work and involved in this kind of pursuits has been of profound personal benefit.
Michael Flood:It's enriched my friendships with other men and with women it's enriched my, intimate or sexual relationships, and it's enriched my sense of self.
Michael Flood:It's meant that I have contact with this kind of extraordinary communities of lovely and amazing men and women and others, and that itself is sustaining.
Michael Flood:So in terms of your answer of, you know, how do you sustain this, how do you keep going?
Michael Flood:I think part of it is the.
Michael Flood:is the friendships and, networks and communities that I've been able to be part of.
Michael Flood:And part of it is more personal too, the kind of personal narratives, that are also sustaining a kind of sense of purpose that sustains this.
Michael Flood:But, yeah, for me, being involved in academia, acade, that is challenging 'cause academia, makes increasing demands on, its on its academic staff and there's
Michael Flood:pressure to publish, to get grants, as well as to be an effective teacher and so on.
Michael Flood:I certainly struggle to juggle those things as well as various forms of advocacy as well as being a parent and a partner and so on.
Michael Flood:Yeah, look, I wouldn't say I'm great at those things.
Michael Flood:you know, there's that, advice about stopping and smelling the flowers about, you know, getting regular exercise about other kinds of things.
Michael Flood:And, you know, I would say I'm poor at many of those things.
Michael Flood:but my sense of purpose sustains me, which is good.
Michael Flood:And, yeah, I think that I will start to do more of those things, in fact, 'cause, yet certainly sustaining, oneself and sustaining, you know, our kind of collective practise.
Michael Flood:That kind of feminist self-care, if you like, I think is a key part of this work.
Sandy Ruxton:Well, thanks for, coming on the podcast and talking, you know, about all the areas of, you know, involvement you've had.
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, it's been fascinating hearing you, summarise all of that and, yeah, thanks for so much for the work that you've done.
Sandy Ruxton:It's been great to hear about it.
Stephen Burrell:Thank you so much for all of the work you do, which is such a kinda inspiration and provides so much kind of, guidance and information for, the rest of us.
Stephen Burrell:So, so yeah, thank you.
Stephen Burrell:And thank you again for giving your time to speak to us today.
Michael Flood:My pleasure.
Michael Flood:As you can tell, it's a passion, but I, yes, have so much to learn from the other people involved in this work and yeah, feel part of a community of people doing good work.
Stephen Burrell:Fantastic.
Stephen Burrell:Thank you.
Stephen Burrell:Thanks so
Sandy Ruxton:much, Michael.
Stephen Burrell:Well, Sandy, it's, don't quite know what to say now, really.
Stephen Burrell:I mean, that was just very impressive, really, wasn't it?
Stephen Burrell:I mean, Michael's vast knowledge and expertise, you know, just spending an hour listening and absorbing all of that was just very, you know, I was in awe really.
Stephen Burrell:What, yeah.
Stephen Burrell:what did you think?
Sandy Ruxton:Yeah, he kind of covered all bases really in that conversation, which is very impressive.
Sandy Ruxton:But, well, I, guess one thing that occurred to me was that his way of introducing himself was interesting.
Sandy Ruxton:Mm-hmm.
Sandy Ruxton:You know, and we did this, little introduction as we always do about what our interviewees have done and, you know, what their interests are, et cetera, et cetera.
Sandy Ruxton:And, you know, he said, well, that all sounds great, but, you know, effectively don't put me on a pedestal too much.
Sandy Ruxton:You know, that is obviously.
Sandy Ruxton:A key issue for men working in this field.
Sandy Ruxton:So he absolutely, he's very aware of that.
Sandy Ruxton:But I felt that he was saying it in a very genuine way, really.
Sandy Ruxton:And that there is a real sort of humility about his approach to this topic.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Sandy Ruxton:And, that, that, is very important.
Sandy Ruxton:So, so I was impressed by that.
Sandy Ruxton:But, also the other, another thing that occurred to me was that I think.
Sandy Ruxton:Men who come from a sort of, feminist stroke, pro-feminist, approach to these issues are sometimes characterised erroneously, I think as in some way anti-men.
Sandy Ruxton:And I think Michael made it very clear that's not fair and that his approach is much more nuanced than that.
Sandy Ruxton:You know, he was, openly critical about some aspects of men's, attitudes, their behaviour, but also, clear about where that kind of, approach.
Sandy Ruxton:Comes from, and it's, you know, partly as a result of living and growing up in a, patriarchal society.
Sandy Ruxton:But also he was positive about some of the, good things that, that men do and their, you know, the importance of them involving themselves in this work.
Sandy Ruxton:So, so I think he gets the balance, quite right in this respect.
Sandy Ruxton:And, I think that's, a difficult thing to do and is widely misunderstood.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Sandy Ruxton:So what did you think?
Stephen Burrell:Yes, no, I absolutely agree.
Stephen Burrell:I think he, he makes it very clear that actually, you know, it's in our own interest as men and actually we as men gain so much from this work as he himself talked about in his own life.
Stephen Burrell:yeah.
Stephen Burrell:And I, do think he, he does a good job of finding a balance as well between like, you know, making some quite critical, quite radical, you know, arguments at times, but also navigating the line there in terms of like.
Stephen Burrell:You know, not scaring people off, whether that's men or policy makers or whoever.
Stephen Burrell:I feel like a lot of his work is, very, practical and, you know, you applicable and like Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Irrelevant to our everyday lives, you know?
Stephen Burrell:And that's a hard line to tread as an academic, I think, isn't it?
Stephen Burrell:And I think he is a very good example of how to simultaneously try to be an academic and an activist.
Sandy Ruxton:I was interested actually that point, he made towards the end about the, benefits for him in being involved in this, work.
Sandy Ruxton:Mm-hmm.
Sandy Ruxton:Because I was thinking back to that, critical stock paper of 2015, which you, mentioned.
Sandy Ruxton:I think that's a point that he makes in there, that sometimes, you know, people say, oh, well this is all, to men's benefit to be involved in, this area.
Sandy Ruxton:And actually there, there can be losses as well for men in that they're, in effect.
Sandy Ruxton:You know, gonna lose some power, some privilege in some cases.
Stephen Burrell:Mm-hmm.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:And again, he gets the nuance there, right?
Stephen Burrell:Doesn't he?
Stephen Burrell:Because actually we should be prepared to lose some power, right?
Stephen Burrell:Like, like we live in an unequal society where men do have more power and that, that isn't fair.
Stephen Burrell:And we should be prepared to lose some of that.
Stephen Burrell:And, actually also, I suppose in terms of our motivations, actually, maybe we don't want men to be motivated primarily for selfish reasons, right?
Stephen Burrell:Like we surely we should actually be motivated, primarily out of a, sense of ethics and, justice and wanting to make the world a fairer place, first and foremost, even if we also will benefit from that in the end.
Stephen Burrell:Well, one thing I was also thinking about, I was interested in what he said about pornography, actually.
Stephen Burrell:I think he made very compelling arguments there, but I was interested in what he said actually about, you know, that perhaps one way of dealing with it is to.
Stephen Burrell:Encourage among young men, you know, perhaps at least trying to find like more ethical, pornographic content, or like feminist porn and things like that.
Stephen Burrell:And I suppose, like, I think that's an interesting argument, isn't it?
Stephen Burrell:'cause I suppose you, you could argue that actually one of the big issues with, pornography is the influence of these big companies.
Stephen Burrell:you know, and I think it's a well, rehearsed tactic really, isn't it?
Stephen Burrell:That perhaps, you know, men, young men in particular, and boys are drawn in, you know, with, and the content does get more and more extreme.
Stephen Burrell:So perhaps you do start off with things which aren't that harmful or anything like that, but actually it can become kind of addictive and you're constantly seeking more and more like intense extreme content.
Stephen Burrell:so I suppose, yeah, like is there a risk that actually, that the pornography that's labelled as being more ethical or less harmful or anything like that.
Stephen Burrell:That actually in the end, that just risks legitimising this industry as a whole, which is, you know, by and large, pretty sexist and pretty harmful.
Stephen Burrell:But on the other hand, maybe again, maybe his approach is actually the more realistic one.
Stephen Burrell:Because if pornography isn't going anywhere, at least we should be trying to
Stephen Burrell:campaign, for it to be at, you know, for the content to at least be less damaging.
Sandy Ruxton:Yeah.
Sandy Ruxton:I guess I, I wonder whether some of the material that young people are seeing, or young men in particular are seeing from a very young age.
Sandy Ruxton:it doesn't start off necessarily being sort of light touch, if you like, is often quite extreme from the start.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah,
Sandy Ruxton:That's very true.
Sandy Ruxton:you know, so I, I was interested too, in his approach to parents I thought was useful.
Sandy Ruxton:Mm-hmm.
Sandy Ruxton:I mean, he was basically saying, you know, you need to have these conversations about what relationships are about what's care, what's love, you know, what's respect and, keep going with that.
Sandy Ruxton:And, also model good practise.
Sandy Ruxton:Yourselves as parents.
Sandy Ruxton:You know, I think that's, that's key.
Sandy Ruxton:But I suppose a, rider to that is, of course, we know that there are many adults who use pornography of quite a disturbing kind as well.
Sandy Ruxton:many men in particular.
Sandy Ruxton:and so if your dad's using porn, then you know, what does that say?
Sandy Ruxton:And, even if you don't find out, there is, some difficult issues in there, isn't there?
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:But I think that's probably, enough for this week, isn't it, Sandy?
Sandy Ruxton:Indeed.
Stephen Burrell:Yeah.
Stephen Burrell:Thank you so much as always, everybody for listening to this episode of Now and Men.
Stephen Burrell:if you haven't already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share it with your friends and family and colleagues.
Stephen Burrell:And, yeah, email us at nowandmen@gmail.com if you have any comments or questions.
Stephen Burrell:And, we'll be back with you with another episode soon.
Stephen Burrell:Thank you so much.
Sandy Ruxton:Well done, Stephen, one day.
Sandy Ruxton:I'll remember that and be able to say it, but I, don't, think I can, as it stands, could take me a few more years.
Stephen Burrell:That's all right.
Sandy Ruxton:Okay.
Sandy Ruxton:Bye for now.
Stephen Burrell:Thank you.
Stephen Burrell:Bye bye.
